What makes a sauna Portable?

A true portable sauna allows for quick assembly/disassembly to move from place to place and also has the ability to be plugged into a 15 amp and or 20 amp 120v outlet.

Can you use metal studs for your framing?

Yes but you will need to secure plywood onto your metal frame. Work on the inside of your framing to provide a surface for the wall boards to be nailed to. The other option would be to apply wood nailers across/ in-between the metal studs to provide locations to secure/ nail the wall boards to. This method would require a vertical installation of wall boards.

Do I need to have a roof kit with an outdoor unit?

Yes you need to provide some type of roof protection for an outdoor sauna. We offer roof kits for all models as an option, but could design your own roof for the sauna. It is important that there is some sort of roof to protect the sauna from the elements.

Why is ceiling height so important in a traditional sauna?

Because heat rises. To keep the temperature optimal in your room the ceiling height in your room should not exceed 84".

Do I need a drain in my sauna room floor?

No, except in rare cases where it might be required by code. There is actually very little water drainage in a dry sauna. You should however, make sure to have a waterproof floor such as tile or concrete to allow for easy clean up.

Do I have a choice of doing a vertical or horizontal install with Arvo kits?

The Arvo kit is available for vertical install only. All wall boards will be the same standard height of 84".

Why is the lead time for saunas by Northern Lights so much longer than others?

These saunas are made-to-order in Finland and then shipped to the US, therefore the container of product must be held in US Customs. US Customs and Border Protection (Dept. of Homeland Security) is legally entitled to hold/search any container of international freight indefinitely, and as such we are unable to guarantee any hard time frame with regards to international shipping of product.

How hot will a sauna get?

All of our electric sauna heaters carry either a UL or ETL listing which mandates that the high limit for electric sauna heaters in a 7' high room be 194F at the ceiling level.

How many people can sit in a Traditional Portable Sauna?

Saunas will normally be listed with a certain number of people capacity. If a sauna is listed as a two person sauna then two average sized people would sit side by side.

Can the Portable Sauna just plug into a regular 110 voltage outlet?

The 1.7kw portable saunas plug into a dedicated 15 amp/120 volt outlet. The 2.1kw portable sauna plugs into a dedicated 20 amp/120 volt outlet.

How long does the Portable Knockdown take to assemble?

The Portable Knockdown saunas can take approximately 1-2 hours. Of course, this depends on how handy you are. The portable 2-piece sauna takes just minutes.

Can pre-built sauna kits ever be dis-assembled and moved?

Yes, they can be assembled and re-assembled somewhere else. It is a 2-4 hour project to assemble and/or dis-assemble.

How are the benches constructed on the Polar Pre-built Sauna?

The Polar benching consists of 2 x 4 frames with 1 x 4 tops for the best comfort.

What is the thickness of the all glass door on the Laatu pre-built sauna?

¼" thick glass is what is used for the all glass door on the Laatu sauna.

What is the thickness of the wood used on the Avalon Pre-built Sauna?

1 " x 4 " (Actual 11/16") Grade A Western Red Cedar is what is used to construct Avalon saunas.

What is the purpose of the backrests along the upper bench wall found in the Catalina Pre-built saunas?

The backrests keep your back off of the T&G boards to prevent sweat and oils to be absorbed into the wood, helping preserve them for many years.

Can I customize my layout in any of the pre-cut sauna kits.

Yes, all sauna kits are considered custom and will be tailored to whatever you specify. You are only bound by the space you are working with and the clearance needed for the heater.

Does the Arvo pre-cut sauna kit include a heater?

No, the Arvo is just a lumber kit but you can add whatever heater you want to your order.

Can I order boards to be installed vertically in the Polar Pre-cut Saunas?

You can order the Polar Saunas as a vertical or horizontal install for the same price but you will need to install nailers to install vertically.

Are external controls included in the Laatu Pre-cut sauna kit?

Yes, you have your choice of the analog PSC control or the digital D60 control. Talk to a consultant if you want controls on the sauna heater.

What is the advantage of the ¾" thick T&G included in the Avalon Pre-cut Sauna kit?

The ¾" (Actual Thickness 11/16") will provide a little better R Value, it has less chance of cupping and warping over time, and you have a wider shoulder & tongue to shoot the nail through.

Does the gray tint on the Catalina door provide privacy for the saunas?

No, the gray tint is see through but you can switch to obscure (frosted glass) for the same price.

Do outdoor sauna kits need the roof kit?

It is recommended so that rain and snow do not collect on the flat roof. Purchasing a roof kit signifigantly extends the life to the sauna itself.

Does the Polar Outdoor kit come with a floor?

No, you need to provide a floor or base pad to set the sauna on. The Polar sauna will come with removable Western Red Cedar duckboard slats for the walking area.

Are the external controls for the Laatu Outdoor Sauna weather proof?

The digital D60 control is weather proof. The analog PSC sauna control will need to be protected somehow if mounted on outside of sauna, but because it has an electronic thermostat, you could have it wired into your house if you wanted.

Does the rough-sawn mahogany of the Avalon Sauna hold up to most weather conditions?

Yes, but you will need to seal it with your brand of waterseal or stain and protect with a poly-urethane as needed. You can upgrade to Western Red Cedar on exterior but that will need protection as well.

Does the Catalina Sauna come with stainless steel hardware for the door to limit rust?

No, but you can upgrade to the FRP kit which would include stainless steel hinges for door, outdoor electrical, and an outdoor lightswitch.

Can the Northern Light Saunas fit in a corner?

Yes, these are five sided sauna rooms specifically designed to go into a corner.

Will the sauna kit come to my exact measurements?

Yes, when we take the order we go through a pre-cut worksheet which asks for the stud to stud measurements. Some angles may need to be cut onsite.

What kinds of wood are used in your infrared saunas?

We feature several brands. Most use hemlock, but have brands that offer Western Red Cedar and Poplar.

What are the advantages of infrared?

It will produce the same amount of sweat as a traditional sauna but it is quicker and does it at lower temperatures. Due to the penetrating heat of infrared saunas it can be very soothing on muscles.

How long does it take to assemble an infrared sauna?

It usually takes about a ½ hour to 45 minutes.

What is the micron range for carbon fiber emitters?

Hotter is not necessarily better in far infrared saunas like it is in traditional rock saunas. Carbon fiber emitters deliver a consistent and optimum 9 micron wavelength at around 120 degrees.

Why is Western Red Cedar more expensive?

Western Hemlock was chosen as the standard due to the fact that it is hypo-allergenic. Western Red Cedar is offered for those who want it but it is manufactured on a special run which drives up the cost.

Can I lay down in my infrared sauna room?

You can lie down in some sizes but it is not recommended. Your body absorbs the infrared rays so if you lie down down you are keeping half your body from being exposed to the rays.

Are your ceramic emitters 100% ceramic?

No, there has to be some sort of filament within the emitter in order to heat it up an create far infrared waves. Some companies like to say that their emitter is "pure ceramic" and what is meant is the "ceramic" part is "pure ceramic".

Does the control come with the MrSteam steam generator?

Our price includes a control with the MrSteam steam generator. The controls also come in optional designer finishes.

Is it better to build my own steam room or get a built-in?

You will have more license for customization when you build your own.

How far can the steam generator be from the steam room.

Both commercial & residential generators should be within 25' but the size of the generator can be increased to compensate for condensation if a residential or commercial steam generator are between 25' to 100' from the steam room.

Which water feed should be hooked up to the steam generator?

Hot water is preferred because it makes the boiling process quicker to produce steam but either supply line would ultimately work for the steam shower.

What is the purpose of the autoflush?

The autoflush ensures that the water reservoir in the steam generator will be emptied after each steam shower session and this will provide clean steam as well as limit corrosion.

What is the drain pan used for?

The drain pan is used for protection and is a way to collect any drips or leaks that may occur over time.

Can I adjust the temperature with the Polar Steam Generator?

Yes, there is a temperature adjustment on the generator.

Is the auto blowdown mandatory?

No, but it is highly recommended due to the constant sediment build up.

What size is the steam line on the Mr. Steam Commercial Generator?

The Steam line is 3/4" NPT.

What type of sauna heater is the most common?

Electric sauna heaters are the most popular type because of the cost and simplicity of installation.

Can you pour water over an electric sauna heater?

Some sauna heaters are more conducive to pour water over but most heaters allow for water to be poured over the rocks.

Do the electric heaters plug into an outlet?

It is recommended that a licensed electrician hook up an electric sauna heater because it is hard wired. The sauna heaters do not plug into standard outlets.

Can you change out the red outer shroud of the Polar sauna heater to stainless?

The stainless version of the Polar is the Laatu. Everything is identical with these two brands and is manufactured by the same company. The only difference in these two brands is the outer shroud.

How much rocks come with the HMR sauna heater?

The HMR sauna heater comes with approximately 50 lbs. of rocks except for the HMR 45. Approximately 30 lbs. of rocks come with the HMR 45 to allow for more air flow in this smaller kilowatt sauna heater.

How much rocks come with the HNVR sauna heater?

The HNVR sauna heater comes with approximately 50 lbs. of rocks except for the HNVR 45. Approximately 30 lbs. of rocks come with the HNVR 45 to allow for more air flow in this smaller kilowatt sauna heater.

Do you need a water line for this Polar Steamy sauna heater?

The Polar Steam sauna heater can be ordered as a "manual fill" or "auto-fill". The auto fill version will need a water line run to the point of hook-up.

Do the 120 volt heaters plug into an outlet?

The 120 volt heaters still have to be hard wire. We recommend ordering it in 220 volts because its more efficient and pulls less amps than the 120 volt.

How much rocks come with the Saunatime sauna heater.

The Saunatime comes with 200 lbs of Vulcanite sauna stones.

Who manufactures the Polar brand sauna heater?

Why are the controls on the bottom of the Polar HMR heater?

Steam and heat rise and this ensures the controls are more protected from the steam and heat.

What is the maximum amount of humidity the Steamy sauna heater will put out in my sauna?

Every room is a little different because of size and the environment surrounding that room. But, the Steamy sauna heater could get the sauna room to approximately 70% humidity.

Do the LA sauna heaters require a contactor?

Yes, all of the LA sauna heaters require a contactor and it is included in the price.

Can the Laatu LA sauna heater be overnighted?

No the Laatu LA sauna heater is too big for UPS or Fed Ex and because it is delivered by a common carrier. It cannot be guaranteed overnight.

Are the Avalon sauna heaters available in stainless steel?

Avalon sauna heaters have a smokey-gray baked enamel shroud. If you want it in stainless steel, you would look at the Catalina sauna heater. These are identical heaters with different outer exterior shrouds.

Does the Catalina SJ sauna heater require a heater fence?

The SJ sauna heater has a built-in heater fence.

Is there a light switch on the Avalon sauna controls?

Yes, you can hook your light up to the control.

Can the controls for the SBS sauna heater be moved to the side?

Yes, the controls can be moved to the left or right side very easily.

What happens if you spill water on the Catalina SK sauna heater controls?

The SK heater controls are enclosed in a water tight casing.

What are the slats for in the shroud of the Catalina sauna heaters?

The vent in the Catalina shroud is exclusive to Sauna Warehouse and it helps circulate the heat and heats the sauna room up quicker.

Do you need a contactor for the Catalina SWS sauna heater?

Only the 8kw Catalina SWS is going to require the external contactor. The price of the contactor is included in the overall price. What is the difference between the Deluxe and the SE Tylo sauna heaters? The SE has a built-in Relay Box which is needed for the CC50 and CC100 controls.

Can the CC50 or CC100 controls be used with the Tylo Deluxe sauna heater?

Yes, but you need to add the proper Relay Box.

Are the external controls for the Laatu Outdoor Sauna weather proof?

The PSC Control is not weather proof so a box would need to be built around it to protect it. The Digital Control is weather proof and would be the best choice if you wanted an outdoor sauna with external controls.

Can the Tylo Combi-U Sauna Heater be used just as a steam generator?

Every room is a little different because of size and the environment surrounding that room. The Combi sauna heater could get the sauna room to approximately 65% humidity.

Are Tylo Controls flush or surface mounted?

All Tylo Controls (TS30-01, CC50, & CC100) are surface mount controls.

Do I need an electrical hook up for the control on the Vico gas heater?

No, the control will be charged during each use so it has power for the next time you go to use it.

What size room do I need to consider when incorporating a woodburning sauna stove?

To meet all clearances it is highly recommended to have a room that is 6' x 8' or larger.

What size stove pipe works with this Catalina Woodburning heater?

The Catalina Woodburning Stove comes with an adaptor that converts to a 6" stove pipe.

Where can I find wiring schematics for sauna heaters?

You can find wiring schematics to the sauna heaters and other products we sell on our technical library page. There is a link to this section at the bottom of each of our web pages.

Are replacement parts available for sauna equipment?

Replacement parts are available for all of our traditional, infrared and steam room products. We sell parts for a variety of brands and products and we can often cross reference for brands we do not represent. You should contact one of our representatives at (855) 728-6434 to properly troubleshoot for the correct part and to see pricing and availability. You can also email us a question at info@saunas.com.

Over the last several years there have been an enormous amount of importers and dealers of infrared saunas that are no longer in business. If you are looking for parts specifically for an Infrared Sauna, you should try contacting the dealer you bought from. We would not be able to help you with infrared parts for brands that we do not represent due to the large amount of Chinese product that is imported into the United States.

How do I reset my sauna heaters high limit switch?

All UL or ETL Listed sauna heaters have reset buttons in case the heater exceeds the allowed high limit (approximately 194F at ceiling level). This high limit switch is built into heaters for safety purposes. It is not uncommon for this switch to have to be reset similar to a tripped breaker on a circuit breaker panel of a home. You should consult your owner’s manual for specifics. Most high limit reset buttons are located underneath the sauna heater for wall mounted units and in the back if it is a floor standing sauna heater. If you feel and/or hear a click when depressing the button, your sauna heater is reset. A springy button (no click) means that the high limit was not the issue and other troubleshooting may need to be done if the heater is not working.

Why do sauna heater high limits need to be reset?

Heater high limit switches are supposed to trip when surface areas of the sauna room exceed maximum temperature. There can be situations when the high limit trips when the temperature is not near the maximum 194F allowed. A common problem is that either too many rocks are stacked tight (or shifted over time) or the rocks are stacked too high above the elements. The heater is tricked into thinking its hotter than it really is. Rock placement is extremely critical to heater performance. Rocks should be loosely packed completely encasing the heating elements with no more than one layer above the elements. Stacking too many rocks or putting too many rocks in the heater will lock heat inside the unit causing it to cycle down before it is up to temperature. This can also trip the high limit forcing you to reset the heater. Another reason that heater high limits trip is that the thermostat sensor is not placed in the correct spot (reference owner’s manual for proper position). Additionally, over-sizing a sauna heater thinking it will get the room hotter causes the high limit to trip. A bigger/more powerful heater is not necessarily better.

What is the difference between the Mica Carbon infrared emitter and the CarbonFlex Carbon Fiber infrared emitter used in infrared saunas?

Our CarbonFlex Carbon Fiber Emitters are the most popular & effective method for manufacturing far infrared heaters. These emitters are used in our Harmony, B-Series and E-Series infrared saunas. The carbon panels are cooler to the touch and feature a larger surface area which gives you a more evenly distributed heat. Because they have a larger surface area, the watts per square inch are much less than the smaller ceramic heater units on the market. Using carbon fiber also allows the manufacturer to spread the emitter out so it spans wall to wall. This ensures the very best coverage possible and eliminates any cold or hot spots.

Mica sheet emitters use solid mica rock for the heater and include a carbon cloth cover to help disperse and protect the emitter. This emitter is used in our Arvo series infrared sauna. Both Mica & CarbonFlex have the higher percentage of IR output per kilowatt compared to ceramic. The difference is that mica sheet emitters are a lower cost than carbon flex and they offer much better coverage than the ceramic. They will not, however, be as spread out as the CarbonFlex emitters.

Are controls for sauna heaters interchangeable between brands?

Sauna Controls are brand & heater specific. Also many manufacturers update controls through the generations so the age of heater or controls may be a factor. Currently Saunatec’s Polar HNVR, Laatu LNVR heaters as well as the LA floor standing sauna heaters are using the PSC external analog controls. The Laatu Digital Heaters use the D-60 Digital External Controls. Our Catalina & Avalon Brands can either use the AC Analog Controls or the AC170 Digital Controls. The Tylo sauna heater uses the Analog TS-30 Controls or you can upgrade to a variety of CC Digital Controls. If you are replacing controls, it is recommended that you discuss your situation with one of our Sales Consultants at (855) 728-6434 or email us at info@saunas.com to ensure you have the correct control for your sauna heater. The manufacturers will not support and/or warranty the controls if they are used with a different manufacturer’s sauna heater and returns will not be granted on controls that have been hooked up.

What is the maximum temperature for infrared saunas?

All of our infrared saunas can be set for a maximum temperature of 150F, but it is important to note that the strongest micrometer range will occur between 120F and 125F. If you want to experience higher temperatures it is recommended you choose a traditional sauna.

How fast does it take to heat up an infrared sauna?

Infrared saunas are ready the minute you turn them on. Your best results will occur with very little heat up time as it is most beneficial to have your body’s core temperatures rise with the surface temperatures of the emitters.

Can I put an infrared sauna outdoors?

Infrared saunas become ineffective when the ambient temperature outside the sauna drops below 65F. Although they may turn on and run through their cycle they will not raise your body’s core temperatures enough to induce profuse sweat. Infrared saunas are generally built without insulated walls because the heat loss helps achieve constant emission which is the most beneficial way to use infrared heat. When the ambient temperature drops below 65F (indoors or outdoors) it would need to operate in the mid or near range of the spectrum. The body absorbs FAR infrared rays much better so you get the best overall results with FAR infrared. Saunas.com sells FAR infrared saunas which are designed for optimum performance when used indoors where the surrounding temperature is 65F or above. Also, infrared saunas are plug-in units and are not intended for various outdoor conditions. Manufacturers only use a furniture grade finish on the exterior which is not UV protected or weather resistant.

Are infrared saunas better than traditional saunas?

Both are terrific compliments to a healthy lifestyle. When used in combination with diet & exercise both provide a beneficial way sweat profusely. Sweating detoxifies impurities from the body, relieves aches and pains in your muscles & joints, and both help in relaxing and relieving daily stresses. One of the main differences is the experience itself. If you do not like higher temperatures or waiting for the sauna to heat up, then you should consider an infrared sauna. Consider a traditional sauna if you want to combine humidity to your climate (by pouring water over rocks), higher temperatures and/or the option to lie down.

Does Saunas.com provide installation or repair service of saunas, sauna heaters or steam generators?

Saunas.com is a supplier only for the sauna & steam industries top manufacturers. We can however offer a wide array of expertise & experience for technical support. We offer free consultation on new construction for your sauna or steam room and we are available through the entire process. Our knowledgeable consultants can provide guidance for troubleshooting issues with your current equipment and/or facilitate communication with our dedicated contacts from the manufacturers we sell for. We have access to parts for multiple brands in order to help you get your equipment up and running again. Finally, technical downloads are available on our website for your reference or we can send you copies of those downloads via email, fax or US Postal Service free of charge.

Can sauna heater or steam generator elements be replaced or maintained?

The sauna heaters & steam generator brands featured at Saunas.com have inter-changeable heating elements and can be changed out as needed or maintained over time. If there are multiple heating elements it is recommended that all be replaced at the same time for optimum performance. It is recommended that a licensed electrician change out elements. Also, due to the variety of brands and wattage requirements, we suggest that you talk to one of our consultants for assistance.

Can infrared heaters be bought individually?

Saunas.com sells several carbon fiber emitter systems separately for customers who have sourced their own lumber in order to build an infrared sauna. In addition to offering several specifically sized carbon fiber emitter systems, we also provide custom kits that include your choice of Western Red Cedar or Western Hemlock sized with the best system based on your dimensions. Our carbon fiber emitter systems are UL Approved to be in a humid environment so you could either build a combination infrared/traditional sauna or convert an existing traditional sauna into a combination infrared/traditional sauna. Conversion is made easy due to the surface mounting innovation for ease of retrofitting. Saunas.com can also provide replacement parts for emitters or replacement emitters that are manufactured as part of the Saunatec family of brands. These options are customized and you will need to consult with someone at Saunas.com. Please email us or call one of our consultants at (855) 728-6434

What are the shipping costs?

Saunas.com makes it simple on our customers by offering free shipping on any purchase over $250.00. Competitors often hide these costs until checkout or will just add the cost to the charge without your knowledge. This can be very costly on large and heavy purchases such as sauna rooms, kits or steam equipment. Our free shipping promotion also makes it very easy for contractors, electricians and designers to properly quote their customers without any surprises. If your purchase from us is less than $250.00, you will have an opportunity to enter your zip code before our checkout process to get the actual shipping costs. You can also email or call us to get assistance from one of our consultants.

What is the maximum temperature of a traditional sauna?

Electric traditional sauna heaters sold in North America cannot exceed 194F at the ceiling height of a 7’ sauna per Underwriters Laboratory mandates for safety & reliability. A good rule of thumb is that sauna temperatures will drop about 15F per foot due to heat rising. If the sauna temperature exceeds 194F in the sauna the heaters high limit will trip and shut down the heater. For this reason it is just as important to choose a sauna heater that is properly sized based on the cubic foot range listed. When properly sized, your traditional sauna temperatures will range between 140F and 194F based on the end users setting and preference. Pouring water on rocks will automatically lower temperature and raise the humidity levels so you can create a climate to your liking. It is recommended for new users to start with a lower temperature and work their way up to their satisfaction. Woodburning stove are an option for purists that want higher temperatures.

What is the temperature range for a steam room?

Steam generators need to be properly sized so that the temperature ranges between 100F – 120F. Steam rooms primarily use 80-100% humidity with these temperatures to induce perspiration. Over sizing of a steam generator may eliminate the ability to have steam in the room due to the higher temperatures. It is recommended for new users to start with a lower temperature and work their way up to their satisfaction.

Can I buy a thermastat or high limit control for my heater?

We do sell parts and controls for electric sauna heaters. It is recommended that you call and talk to a consultant due to the various brands and models on the marker. We can often cross reference a brand and/or model and can help in finding the right part.

How will my Sauna kit be shipped and delivered to my home?

Due to size and weight, all Sauna kits of any size or type will be shipped to the end customer by way of LTL (less-than-truckload) common-carrier freight.

How is my product packaged?

  • - Sauna kits will be packaged on freight pallets, typically a max of ~800lbs per pallet
  • - Panel-built units will be stacked often in excess of 8' tall on their pallet
  • - Items/materials will be individually packaged and stacked on the pallet(s)
  • - Each pallet will be shrink-wrapped to secure the multiple pieces onboard
  • - Loose/small items will be boxed together to save space

What will the delivery company do for me when they arrive?*

  • - Delivery company will call you ~24hrs+ ahead of time to arrange delivery time & location
  • - Truck will arrive at your address ""curbside"" and open their trailer, w/ your freight at the rear
  • *This is what is referred to industry-wide as Curbside Delivery. This is the delivery service included FREE with your Sauna kit purchase; any other freight services required by you must be PURCHASED.

What will the delivery company NOT do for me by default? (unless add'l services are purchased by you)

  • - Will not unpackage your freight or pallet
  • - Will not drop merchandise down to ground level using a lift gate
  • - Will not carry merchandise into your home/structure/building
  • - Will not assemble your product
  • - Will not inspect your product for damage

What will the delivery company do if I purchase add'l services? (rates vary by weight, size etc.)

  • - LIFT GATE SVC: - Lower your pallet(s) to ground level (your curb/driveway/whatever is accessible)
  • - INSIDE DELIVERY SVC: Place your pallet(s) immediately inside an accessible entrance (garage, front door, if pallet fits)
  • - 2ND CREWMAN: Send a second crew member along w/ driver to assist in moving freight to your curb/driveway from the back of the truck.
  • - FINAL MILE PREMIUM SVC: This service is exceptionally expensive and can cost many hundreds of dollars. A secondary freight carrier will be arranged to deliver your pallet(s) to your home, and perform the following services, depending on the price; 2nd/3rd Crewman Assist, Unpack Pallet, Unpack individual boxes, place product(s) in specific room inside home, Second-Floor carry-in, Debris/packing material clean-up and Haul-Away.

What do I need to do on delivery day?

  • - If you are receiving standard curbside delivery, we strongly advise you arrange a friend(s) to assist you, or arrange the delivery date for a date/time during which the contractor/handyman installing/assembling your Sauna will be on-site to
  • assist in unloading
  • - Unpack as much of the product as possible and inspect for damage BEFORE signing the driver's freight slip!
  • - Once you sign the driver's freight slip, you have legally stated to the freight carrier that you have received your product in it's entirety, and in good condition. Concealed damage after-the-fact can be claimed through Saunas.com (our service staff is glad to assist you with this) however, freight claims with most common carriers can take anywhere from 4-8 weeks to recover claimed expenses once the damage is proven!